All Blacks 2025
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t necessarily think it is unusual that a new coach any sport would favour his trusted old boys when stepping up to the biggest job in the sport, in fact I think it is probably a fair enough natural bias… however in years 2&3 as the natural bias wears off he has to steer away from it, and I expect that it will.
Robertson was deliberately chosen to make a complete break from the old, established practice. The inexperience argument just doesn't hold water.
I am as anti Robertson being conservative as anyone, but I think this is just a straight assumption. We had been playing badly for a long time, picking Foster as a successful assistant but not a successful head coach did not pan out, and so this time they picked a successful coach instead - anyone would have been a break from the Henry era - unless you think they were going to pick one of Foster's assistants?
What doesn't wash with me is Robertson picking average players (Chiefs, Crusaders, Blues), past-it players (Blues, Chiefs, Hurricanes), and players (Crusaders) who have yet to show anything approaching AB level when playing Super. He's done a mediocre job so far, but I don't think his appointment was to clean house any more than a different appointment (Joseph/Cotter/Rennie/whoever) would have been.@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t necessarily think it is unusual that a new coach any sport would favour his trusted old boys when stepping up to the biggest job in the sport, in fact I think it is probably a fair enough natural bias… however in years 2&3 as the natural bias wears off he has to steer away from it, and I expect that it will.
Robertson was deliberately chosen to make a complete break from the old, established practice. The inexperience argument just doesn't hold water.
I am as anti Robertson being conservative as anyone, but I think this is just a straight assumption. We had been playing badly for a long time, picking Foster as a successful assistant but not a successful head coach did not pan out, and so this time they picked a successful coach instead - anyone would have been a break from the Henry era - unless you think they were going to pick one of Foster's assistants?
What doesn't wash with me is Robertson picking average players (Chiefs, Crusaders, Blues), past-it players (Blues, Chiefs, Hurricanes), and players (Crusaders) who have yet to show anything approaching AB level when playing Super. He's done a mediocre job so far, but I don't think his appointment was to clean house any more than a different appointment (Joseph/Cotter/Rennie/whoever) would have been.They picked a successful super rugby coach as a head coach. That's a clear break from the old, established continuity approach. Fine by me, roll the dice and give a 4 year contract to let him settle in
But, If I were the head of NZR, i.e God, I've have moved heaven and earth to ensure an experienced international coach like Cotter or Schmidt was a key part of the coaching set-up
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Based on all the information we had at the time, it had to be Robertson. He was riding the crest of a wave.
The bizarre thing was they gave it to him too late. After the departure of his captain (Whitelock) and his 10 (Mo'unga).
Im more disappointed in him since he got the job, than I would be with NZ for giving it to him.
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Based on all the information we had at the time, it had to be Robertson. He was riding the crest of a wave.
The bizarre thing was they gave it to him too late. After the departure of his captain (Whitelock) and his 10 (Mo'unga).
Im more disappointed in him since he got the job, than I would be with NZ for giving it to him.
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
The bizarre thing was they gave it to him too late.
The best time would have been after 2 years of Continuity Foster. Take us to the RWC and you'd see if he had the coaching chops at Test level. 4 more years at the Crusaders didn't develop him any more unfortunately. However, NZR don't seem to move coaches on easily - that would have been a 'not renewed contract' not a sacking.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Would France, Ireland, England or South Africa favour ALB over their best centres?
As we are talking about the best talent available to the AB's, isn't that a bit irrelevant though?
My contention is he isn’t the best available.
That’s my point.The other teams seem to select on upside.
How is Thomas Ramos defence?
How is Bundee Aki’s kicking game?
How is Jonathan Dantys distribution?So for all the perceived deficiencies of the aforementioned NZ players , the likes of Stevensons boot and line breaking ability, or Sotutus hand skills or Laumapes block buster runs could have been used instead of ALB and his ilk crabbing around behind the gain line or running in treacle when in space.
And before people talk about some of these players sub par D or workrate or whatever, remember we have been shipping 30 odd points to Argentina at home anyway. with the "safe" incumbents. The good communicators, the safe pairs of hands. The honest toilers.
Maybe a howitzer boot at 15 or a big carry might keep us away from our own end of the field longer and they might not have to tackle or toil as much anyway.
We have been selecting our squads through a lens of anxiety rather than enthusiasm.
How many caps would Wallace have if Blackadder had stayed fit?
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
My contention is he isn’t the best available.
Yes he has been. He's been a dependable test experienced midfielder who has been used to fill the gap when the two top players aren't available.
Don't have an issue with your comments about other players not being picked because they don't have completely all round games, but their strengths are utilised, however with ALB I think you've flipped it the other way.
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something ive slowly learnt as a Highlanders fan, year on year i look and think "hey...thats a solid squad, we;ll do alright"...and then we dont. we need to stop look at our players and think theyre good or great...when we're not getting the results we should....if we're not doing well....then theyre not the right players
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This ALB slander will not stand.
For many, many years, ALB was the most complete midfielder in the country, both sides of the ball. Accurate in defense, inventive in attack. He's 29, he's played a decade for the Chiefs, and 80+ tests. He's had some standout moments in Black, both off the bench and starting. 2024 wasn't his year, but just ignoring everything up to that point is complete bullshit.
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Based on all the information we had at the time, it had to be Robertson. He was riding the crest of a wave.
The bizarre thing was they gave it to him too late. After the departure of his captain (Whitelock) and his 10 (Mo'unga).
Im more disappointed in him since he got the job, than I would be with NZ for giving it to him.
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Based on all the information we had at the time, it had to be Robertson. He was riding the crest of a wave.
And riding a big media campaign
The bizarre thing was they gave it to him too late. After the departure of his captain (Whitelock) and his 10 (Mo'unga).
He still has/had the cream of NZ rugby to pick from. And he knew the career plans of those 2 when he took on the job.
Im more disappointed in him since he got the job, than I would be with NZ for giving it to him.
While he hasn't turned out to be the glorious Coach Fantastic his fanbois repeated assured us he would be, it's a bit early to judge him fully. This year will remove that luxury though.
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This ALB slander will not stand.
For many, many years, ALB was the most complete midfielder in the country, both sides of the ball. Accurate in defense, inventive in attack. He's 29, he's played a decade for the Chiefs, and 80+ tests. He's had some standout moments in Black, both off the bench and starting. 2024 wasn't his year, but just ignoring everything up to that point is complete bullshit.
@mariner4life all fair points, i sometimes feel we spend far too much time talking about whos on then bench (ie the final 20min or the odd time something goes wrong rather than the majority of the game)...and we often pick these versatile guys almost as a wee thanks..."you were never quite #1....but please hang around"...but if im honest id rather be losing these guys in their late 20's early 30's overseas....than the youngster guys that cant see a path into the black jersey
potential to be a future long term starter should trump "dependable" if something goes wrong
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
My contention is he isn’t the best available.
Yes he has been. He's been a dependable test experienced midfielder who has been used to fill the gap when the two top players aren't available.
Don't have an issue with your comments about other players not being picked because they don't have completely all round games, but their strengths are utilised, however with ALB I think you've flipped it the other way.
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
My contention is he isn’t the best available.
Yes he has been. He's been a dependable test experienced midfielder who has been used to fill the gap when the two top players aren't available.
Don't have an issue with your comments about other players not being picked because they don't have completely all round games, but their strengths are utilised, however with ALB I think you've flipped it the other way.
81 caps.....
Bonkers stuff.
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Based on all the information we had at the time, it had to be Robertson. He was riding the crest of a wave.
And riding a big media campaign
The bizarre thing was they gave it to him too late. After the departure of his captain (Whitelock) and his 10 (Mo'unga).
He still has/had the cream of NZ rugby to pick from. And he knew the career plans of those 2 when he took on the job.
Im more disappointed in him since he got the job, than I would be with NZ for giving it to him.
While he hasn't turned out to be the glorious Coach Fantastic his fanbois repeated assured us he would be, it's a bit early to judge him fully. This year will remove that luxury though.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2025:
Based on all the information we had at the time, it had to be Robertson. He was riding the crest of a wave.
And riding a big media campaign
The bizarre thing was they gave it to him too late. After the departure of his captain (Whitelock) and his 10 (Mo'unga).
He still has/had the cream of NZ rugby to pick from. And he knew the career plans of those 2 when he took on the job.
Im more disappointed in him since he got the job, than I would be with NZ for giving it to him.
While he hasn't turned out to be the glorious Coach Fantastic his fanbois repeated assured us he would be, it's a bit early to judge him fully. This year will remove that luxury though.
Fair points, well made.
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@booboo Those games confirm my broader point that there is no room for complacency for the ABs at moment.
They narrowly beat England in all three of those games. All three could have gone the other way. If George Ford had landed a simple drop goal shot England would have won the last one. None of those were anything other than mediocre performances by the All Blacks.
Robertson and co. will have to offer more in 2025 or serious questions will be asked whether they are up to the job.
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo Those games confirm my broader point that there is no room for complacency for the ABs at moment.
They narrowly beat England in all three of those games. All three could have gone the other way. If George Ford had landed a simple drop goal shot England would have won the last one. None of those were anything other than mediocre performances by the All Blacks.
Robertson and co. will have to offer more in 2025 or serious questions will be asked whether they are up to the job.
Agree with your broader point.
Re second bolded bit, the same sliding doors would have seen us beating France. But we didn't, and England didn't beat us.
Of course the series v France will be "tough". It's a series against France.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
All three could have gone the other way.
There were other games we could have won last year, but didnt.
Yeah, sure, but we didn't.
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
All three could have gone the other way.
There were other games we could have won last year, but didnt.
Yeah, sure, but we didn't.
The irony is strong in this one.
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We need to stop worrying about what players offered in the previous world cup cycle (and earlier than that in some cases) and think about what are they going to offer in 2025 and beyond. This applies to Beauden, Rieko, ALB, Havili etc
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We need to stop worrying about what players offered in the previous world cup cycle (and earlier than that in some cases) and think about what are they going to offer in 2025 and beyond. This applies to Beauden, Rieko, ALB, Havili etc
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
We need to stop worrying about what players offered in the previous world cup cycle (and earlier than that in some cases) and think about what are they going to offer in 2025 and beyond. This applies to Beauden, Rieko, ALB, Havili etc
It’s applied to the 4 of them (and others) for years already.
There is a cadre of blokes leading an incredibly charmed life.
Lads racking up 70/80 cheap caps and in Beaudys case a dozen caps shy of McCaw while scoring one try a year.
It’s laughable.
As I have said before, I used to love some of these players and unlike say a Cullen or Umaga where you might have felt they had more left and you thought what if, I’m sick of the sight of some of these lads now.
And that doesn’t sit well with me.
They were good Allblacks.But they should have gotten the tap on the shoulder years ago.
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This ALB slander will not stand.
For many, many years, ALB was the most complete midfielder in the country, both sides of the ball. Accurate in defense, inventive in attack. He's 29, he's played a decade for the Chiefs, and 80+ tests. He's had some standout moments in Black, both off the bench and starting. 2024 wasn't his year, but just ignoring everything up to that point is complete bullshit.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
This ALB slander will not stand.
For many, many years, ALB was the most complete midfielder in the country, both sides of the ball. Accurate in defense, inventive in attack. He's 29, he's played a decade for the Chiefs, and 80+ tests. He's had some standout moments in Black, both off the bench and starting. 2024 wasn't his year, but just ignoring everything up to that point is complete bullshit.
and two games in he has been looking pretty sharp
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We need to stop worrying about what players offered in the previous world cup cycle (and earlier than that in some cases) and think about what are they going to offer in 2025 and beyond. This applies to Beauden, Rieko, ALB, Havili etc
@KiwiMurph Hard agree. You've hit the nail on the head.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
This ALB slander will not stand.
For many, many years, ALB was the most complete midfielder in the country, both sides of the ball. Accurate in defense, inventive in attack. He's 29, he's played a decade for the Chiefs, and 80+ tests. He's had some standout moments in Black, both off the bench and starting. 2024 wasn't his year, but just ignoring everything up to that point is complete bullshit.
and two games in he has been looking pretty sharp
@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
This ALB slander will not stand.
For many, many years, ALB was the most complete midfielder in the country, both sides of the ball. Accurate in defense, inventive in attack. He's 29, he's played a decade for the Chiefs, and 80+ tests. He's had some standout moments in Black, both off the bench and starting. 2024 wasn't his year, but just ignoring everything up to that point is complete bullshit.
and two games in he has been looking pretty sharp
I just feel his highest highs dont trouble the big boys at international level.
They cope with ALB quite well. They arent fretting over him prepping for a game week.
He is not Conrad Smith and he isnt SBW or Nonu.
And if he is so good, how is Rieko Iaone keeping him out of the team when he himself cant even catch a pass.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
This ALB slander will not stand.
For many, many years, ALB was the most complete midfielder in the country, both sides of the ball. Accurate in defense, inventive in attack. He's 29, he's played a decade for the Chiefs, and 80+ tests. He's had some standout moments in Black, both off the bench and starting. 2024 wasn't his year, but just ignoring everything up to that point is complete bullshit.
and two games in he has been looking pretty sharp
@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
This ALB slander will not stand.
For many, many years, ALB was the most complete midfielder in the country, both sides of the ball. Accurate in defense, inventive in attack. He's 29, he's played a decade for the Chiefs, and 80+ tests. He's had some standout moments in Black, both off the bench and starting. 2024 wasn't his year, but just ignoring everything up to that point is complete bullshit.
and two games in he has been looking pretty sharp
The whole Chiefs backline was looking sharp. DMac looks far more composed when he's not constantly being depended upon to make the play with the ball in his hands
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@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
This ALB slander will not stand.
For many, many years, ALB was the most complete midfielder in the country, both sides of the ball. Accurate in defense, inventive in attack. He's 29, he's played a decade for the Chiefs, and 80+ tests. He's had some standout moments in Black, both off the bench and starting. 2024 wasn't his year, but just ignoring everything up to that point is complete bullshit.
and two games in he has been looking pretty sharp
The whole Chiefs backline was looking sharp. DMac looks far more composed when he's not constantly being depended upon to make the play with the ball in his hands
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
This ALB slander will not stand.
For many, many years, ALB was the most complete midfielder in the country, both sides of the ball. Accurate in defense, inventive in attack. He's 29, he's played a decade for the Chiefs, and 80+ tests. He's had some standout moments in Black, both off the bench and starting. 2024 wasn't his year, but just ignoring everything up to that point is complete bullshit.
and two games in he has been looking pretty sharp
The whole Chiefs backline was looking sharp. DMac looks far more composed when he's not constantly being depended upon to make the play with the ball in his hands
Following on from this, it's such a shame that they didnt give the DMAC/ Stevenson 10/15 axis a go at some point at international level. They were slicing people open for years.
The whole thing was so muddled. Perofeta was in then out. Narawa was in then out. Beaudy was at 15 off the bench. DMAC was the 10. Then Beaudy was the 10 by the end of the season.
All over the shop.
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Following on from the comment made about Roe by @Mr-Fish in the Chiefs thread, it's pleasing how quickly the half back situation has turned around in NZ. There are probably about five half backs running around that could do the job for the ABs. We just need the same thing to happen at 10.
