All Blacks 2025
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@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
The Chiefs did it very well against MP on the weekend. Targeted certain players to run the ball at, took them out of the turnover zone and cleaned out aggressively. They went more direct and things opened up. I still think this is the key as opposed to running wide early and often
I woud much prefer a slower and more targetted approach to creating space (then moving at pace to exploit that space) rather than move the ball fast and wide at every oppertunity and hope space appears somewhere.
Be more direct. Makes it easier to control the breakdown and recycle, and less chance of turning the ball over
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@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
From what I've seen the Saffas are basically using heavy rotation of their starting line up to keep players fresh. Their players often get rotated at the 35 to 50 mark compared to ours at 60 - 70. The use of our bench was often poor last year. The mindset is completely different.
This nullifies completly the whole "run them off their feet" gameplan which we still persist with and we haven't got a plan B in the back pocket to counter this. It's tactically brilliant (albiet with calculated risk should 2 backs get injured) that we haven't got an answer for.
In short the AB's need to find a way to make space on the field that doesn't rely on players being out of position due to fatigue because when you can basically sub on a whole new forward pack no-one is fatigued.
It is good tactics, but it's hardly new. That's the disturbing part for me: it takes us about a decade to adapt to fucking anything new. We're still talking about it as something to solve now, when they started it in fucking 2019!
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
While he can still pull out a good performance here and there, BBs best days are behind him. I think he is a liability to the development of the team as we move to 2027, Beaudy is taking time away from potential successors
When NZR signed a long-ish contract with him, I assumed the strategy was using him on the bench or providing an experienced backup allowing Robertson to blood new players at 10 and 15.
How wrong I was.
Robertson selected DMac as 1st choice 1st 5 from his first test, you know the less experienced guy who had not been the guy in 2023. And SP, the relatively green and inexperienced guy was selected at fullback. Barrett, the experienced backup on the bench.
So a tick, tick right?
Second test, the same selections. More ticks.
3rd, 4th and 5th tests DMac is still at 10. But we have a problem at fullback with Perofeta, so Tobertson selects Barrett at fullback and should’ve bit the bullet at that point and selected Jordan - which he eventually got to for the second Boks tests, the Bledisloe and all the bigger games for the NH tour. So new fullback blooded. Tick.
And SP also started a NH test at fullback. Tick.
> So after Bledisloe I there is an issue with DMac, so he is replaced by Barrett for 3 of the final 5 tests as the starter. No tick.
There was intent and endeavour, with those selections, and some missed opportunities as well but hardly all wrong.
This season we will see a much improved Love (didn’t think he played that well last season) make his move. And there is definitely one other on the coaches radar, but don’t want to jinx it by calling it out early
That right there is where I lost faith. Up until that point, I thought I could see a plan for the future. There was a fair bit of crap, but there were some genuinely excellent patches - e.g. the first half of Boks 1, they didn't look like they could stay with us, and we were looking good against the rush for the first time in forever.
As soon as we went back to Beauden I had no idea what he was trying to achieve anymore. Then when Beauden was injured and we beat Ireland with McKenzie central to it, I thought okay, back on track - and he fucking went and dropped McKenzie again. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
From what I've seen the Saffas are basically using heavy rotation of their starting line up to keep players fresh. Their players often get rotated at the 35 to 50 mark compared to ours at 60 - 70. The use of our bench was often poor last year. The mindset is completely different.
This nullifies completly the whole "run them off their feet" gameplan which we still persist with and we haven't got a plan B in the back pocket to counter this. It's tactically brilliant (albiet with calculated risk should 2 backs get injured) that we haven't got an answer for.
In short the AB's need to find a way to make space on the field that doesn't rely on players being out of position due to fatigue because when you can basically sub on a whole new forward pack no-one is fatigued.
It is good tactics, but it's hardly new. That's the disturbing part for me: it takes us about a decade to adapt to fucking anything new. We're still talking about it as something to solve now, when they started it in fucking 2019!
I feel your pain...
And given it's still the same problem under the innovative, fresh thinking and innovative Robertson it's only become more annoying.
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@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
From what I've seen the Saffas are basically using heavy rotation of their starting line up to keep players fresh. Their players often get rotated at the 35 to 50 mark compared to ours at 60 - 70. The use of our bench was often poor last year. The mindset is completely different.
This nullifies completly the whole "run them off their feet" gameplan which we still persist with and we haven't got a plan B in the back pocket to counter this. It's tactically brilliant (albiet with calculated risk should 2 backs get injured) that we haven't got an answer for.
In short the AB's need to find a way to make space on the field that doesn't rely on players being out of position due to fatigue because when you can basically sub on a whole new forward pack no-one is fatigued.
This isn't the thread for it but I really dislike the rules around the use of the bench in modern footy, allowing teams to substitute an almost entirely new forward pack on for the second 40. It's largely removed one of the most challenging parts of the game - executing your skills in the final 10 minutes when the lungs are burning and the legs feel like jelly to get the win.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
From what I've seen the Saffas are basically using heavy rotation of their starting line up to keep players fresh. Their players often get rotated at the 35 to 50 mark compared to ours at 60 - 70. The use of our bench was often poor last year. The mindset is completely different.
This nullifies completly the whole "run them off their feet" gameplan which we still persist with and we haven't got a plan B in the back pocket to counter this. It's tactically brilliant (albiet with calculated risk should 2 backs get injured) that we haven't got an answer for.
In short the AB's need to find a way to make space on the field that doesn't rely on players being out of position due to fatigue because when you can basically sub on a whole new forward pack no-one is fatigued.
This isn't the thread for it but I really dislike the rules around the use of the bench in modern footy, allowing teams to substitute an almost entirely new forward packs on for the second 40. It's completely removed one of the most challenging parts of the game - executing your skills in the final 10 minutes when the lungs are burning and the legs feel like jelly to get the win.
Me too, but you can't change the rules you can only change how you play.
You can pick like for like and play them at their own game.
You can try something as simple as targeting players you know won't be subbed. Run our guys at their backs all day, then sub our guys who are running at their backs, and run at them some more.What we did, is not sub until about 70 minutes and pick a specialist winger on the bench. Fuck. Off.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
I don't really remember them being an established combo for the ABs.
Lots of Whetton, Jones, Shelford.
Then combos of Whetton, Jones, Brewer, Brooke and Earl.
My favourite was always JC, Richie and Rodders.
All kinda 7.5s ...
…..and all considerably better than the 7.5s on offer today
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@reprobate and thats the problem, back at Henry & Co's time, plus early Hansen they very much played the old Horses for courses for players and even game plans (e.g lets run at Pocock all day to reduce his effectiveness at the breakdown)
Whereas c 2017 ish to present, we have a game plan (that has evolved fuck all) and be damned if the players fit it, or the opposition can too easily deal with it, we'll keep on going, it'll work, soon, surely...probably?
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
And there is definitely one other on the coaches radar, but don’t want to jinx it by calling it out early
Oh come on. Kemara is injured and JOC is ineligible isn't he? So that leaves Rihanna.
A few weeks ago an Aussie commentator mentioned Harkin was in the mix for AB selection. That would be interesting.
Wouldn't take any notice of an Aussie commentator. Someone has a good half of rugby, or even starts in super they seem be in mix for test rugby.
Yes I'm well aware of that.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
I don't really remember them being an established combo for the ABs.
Lots of Whetton, Jones, Shelford.
Then combos of Whetton, Jones, Brewer, Brooke and Earl.
My favourite was always JC, Richie and Rodders.
All kinda 7.5s ...
…..and all considerably better than the 7.5s on offer today
You think they're all clearly better than Ardie Savea?
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
I don't really remember them being an established combo for the ABs.
Lots of Whetton, Jones, Shelford.
Then combos of Whetton, Jones, Brewer, Brooke and Earl.
My favourite was always JC, Richie and Rodders.
All kinda 7.5s ...
…..and all considerably better than the 7.5s on offer today
You think they're all clearly better than Ardie Savea?
Ardie is undefinable. I haven't counted him.
They are all better than Papalii, Jacobsen and Blackadder though.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
I don't really remember them being an established combo for the ABs.
Lots of Whetton, Jones, Shelford.
Then combos of Whetton, Jones, Brewer, Brooke and Earl.
My favourite was always JC, Richie and Rodders.
All kinda 7.5s ...
…..and all considerably better than the 7.5s on offer today
You think they're all clearly better than Ardie Savea?
Ardie is undefinable. I haven't counted him.
They are all better than Papalii, Jacobsen and Blackadder though.
Look I think it's fair to say they'd all walk back into the current squad.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
From what I've seen the Saffas are basically using heavy rotation of their starting line up to keep players fresh. Their players often get rotated at the 35 to 50 mark compared to ours at 60 - 70. The use of our bench was often poor last year. The mindset is completely different.
This nullifies completly the whole "run them off their feet" gameplan which we still persist with and we haven't got a plan B in the back pocket to counter this. It's tactically brilliant (albiet with calculated risk should 2 backs get injured) that we haven't got an answer for.
In short the AB's need to find a way to make space on the field that doesn't rely on players being out of position due to fatigue because when you can basically sub on a whole new forward pack no-one is fatigued.
This isn't the thread for it but I really dislike the rules around the use of the bench in modern footy, allowing teams to substitute an almost entirely new forward pack on for the second 40. It's largely removed one of the most challenging parts of the game - executing your skills in the final 10 minutes when the lungs are burning and the legs feel like jelly to get the win.
I agree with the sentiment and I think we can all tell that the rules weren't designed with the "swap the entire forward pack" in mind, we are witnessing an unintended consquence of rules arond player welfare and safety being exploited.
However by the same token I do admire the tactical nous and am miffed that the AB's weren't smart enough to comeup with this tactic - especially when we employ a run-them-off-their-feet style of game plan which this would suit ideally.
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@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
From what I've seen the Saffas are basically using heavy rotation of their starting line up to keep players fresh. Their players often get rotated at the 35 to 50 mark compared to ours at 60 - 70. The use of our bench was often poor last year. The mindset is completely different.
This nullifies completly the whole "run them off their feet" gameplan which we still persist with and we haven't got a plan B in the back pocket to counter this. It's tactically brilliant (albiet with calculated risk should 2 backs get injured) that we haven't got an answer for.
In short the AB's need to find a way to make space on the field that doesn't rely on players being out of position due to fatigue because when you can basically sub on a whole new forward pack no-one is fatigued.
This isn't the thread for it but I really dislike the rules around the use of the bench in modern footy, allowing teams to substitute an almost entirely new forward pack on for the second 40. It's largely removed one of the most challenging parts of the game - executing your skills in the final 10 minutes when the lungs are burning and the legs feel like jelly to get the win.
I agree with the sentiment and I think we can all tell that the rules weren't designed with the "swap the entire forward pack" in mind, we are witnessing an unintended consquence of rules arond player welfare and safety being exploited.
However by the same token I do admire the tactical nous and am miffed that the AB's weren't smart enough to comeup with this tactic - especially when we employ a run-them-off-their-feet style of game plan which this would suit ideally.
TBH, I think if we were using this method successfully the NH would already have been making moves to adjust the laws.
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@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
From what I've seen the Saffas are basically using heavy rotation of their starting line up to keep players fresh. Their players often get rotated at the 35 to 50 mark compared to ours at 60 - 70. The use of our bench was often poor last year. The mindset is completely different.
This nullifies completly the whole "run them off their feet" gameplan which we still persist with and we haven't got a plan B in the back pocket to counter this. It's tactically brilliant (albiet with calculated risk should 2 backs get injured) that we haven't got an answer for.
In short the AB's need to find a way to make space on the field that doesn't rely on players being out of position due to fatigue because when you can basically sub on a whole new forward pack no-one is fatigued.
This isn't the thread for it but I really dislike the rules around the use of the bench in modern footy, allowing teams to substitute an almost entirely new forward pack on for the second 40. It's largely removed one of the most challenging parts of the game - executing your skills in the final 10 minutes when the lungs are burning and the legs feel like jelly to get the win.
I agree with the sentiment and I think we can all tell that the rules weren't designed with the "swap the entire forward pack" in mind, we are witnessing an unintended consquence of rules arond player welfare and safety being exploited.
Every time a prop plays more than 65 minutes nowadays everyone is all 'woah big shift' like it's some amazing achievement. The Saffas would probably say that if they hit 55 minutes. They've made the game more dangerous by making it played by bigger stronger guys with less need for aerobic fitness.
Maybe someone could take the old Otago NPC approach to them - just keep the ball alive at all costs cause everyone else's forwards are bigger and stronger. It was good to watch, but far too high risk for the ABs. -
The addition of more substitutions hasn’t necessarily made the game any better in my view.
But why we haven’t utilised a 6/2 bench - I’m more for the specialist forwards and getting all the benefits of that. Some versatility in the backs I’m less concerned with - they are smarter and better anyway.
It’s not about copying anyone but to play a more confrontational style for longer periods in the 80 minutes.
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Thoughts on Fusitua in the squad. Heard he might be a Smokey.
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@chchfanatic said in All Blacks 2025:
Thoughts on Fusitua in the squad. Heard he might be a Smokey.
Think there's a better option in Ollie Norris, but the third-choice loosehead isn't exactly going to be picking up much game time so not too bothered if Fusitu'a does get the call up. Would rather him than an older guy like George Bower when you've got two props in Tamaiti Williams and Ethan de Groot who are both more than capable of footing it with the best.
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@chchfanatic Not bad, but I'd prefer Ollie Norris as the third loosehead.
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@chchfanatic said in All Blacks 2025:
Thoughts on Fusitua in the squad. Heard he might be a Smokey.
Interesting. I thought he may be a year or two off being considered despite having a massive breakout season. Real workhorse prop around the park and there hasn't been an issue with his scrummaging but yeah, wasn't expecting him to be in the frame this quickly.
