All Blacks 2025
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph It's a bit poor to just turn up for the cash.
I would have picked Plummer last year instead of Perofeta, but he still would have been third choice. In my mind he's David Hill.
Reihana is promising, but doesn't look test ready.
I don't buy that these guys were/are the missing links.
DMac or Beaudy is the question - until the second coming!
If Plummer had been staying I would have picked him over Beauden at 10 for the Blues, and he was more successful.
I don't think he is/was the answer at AB level, he had one good year then fucked off - and it's not like his individual brilliance won that title.Plummer is actually a good option in a game like yesterday. He runs more direct, is a more physical tackler and is better at securing ball it the breakdown. These are requirements in the modern game for a 10.
His option taking is also better than both BB and Mckenzie.
What I found infuriating was we never saw whether his skillset could translate to Test rugby. We've become enamoured with 10s who "break games apart" rather than execute with consistency and are well-rounded enough that they keep defences honest whilst providing good, timely service to their outsides.
He played a season (or enough of one) to look good with a gameplan that sought to dominate in the forwards. Surely that's a capacity we want to see from our game managers - keep the ball in front of our forwards and give it to the backs when opportunity provides?
Instead I feel Razor's messaging in the media is for a 10 that waits until he can be in a position to exploit an opportunity himself. At least that's my impression.
Personally I want a 10 that decides quickly if there's opportunity for his outsides to do something and give them the opportunity or keep the ball in front of his forwards. Your 10 doesn't have to be the superstar.
I quite like Plummer as a player, and he had a good season. One good season. Plenty of guys have a few good seasons before they make the ABs, and he bolted after one.
What irks me is that in not giving Plummer a decent shot, the obvious argument for that is 'Plummer didn't win that comp, the Blues forwards did'. But we also didn't select the outstanding Blues forwards? -
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph It's a bit poor to just turn up for the cash.
I would have picked Plummer last year instead of Perofeta, but he still would have been third choice. In my mind he's David Hill.
Reihana is promising, but doesn't look test ready.
I don't buy that these guys were/are the missing links.
DMac or Beaudy is the question - until the second coming!
If Plummer had been staying I would have picked him over Beauden at 10 for the Blues, and he was more successful.
I don't think he is/was the answer at AB level, he had one good year then fucked off - and it's not like his individual brilliance won that title.You make some good points. But he played a significant part in the way that backline operated, and he was important to their winning season. And as you said you can only think. If Razor had given him a run perhaps we might have known if he was up to it or not
That is half my point though: you can't expect to become an incumbent AB based on one genuinely pretty good season. A frankly fucking amazing season like Hoskins had wasn't enough to even make the squad.
If you choose to leave at that point rather than back it up and press your claim, that's on you.Perhaps he saw he had no shot, and took the money. I could understand, DMac arguably outplayed BB last season and he can't get a start
Late last season, Fin Christie would have been thinking he had no remaining shot. They'd picked TJP - who they knew was leaving - ahead of him, along with the youngsters in the ABs and NZ A.
And yet, here we are.
Harry had made it into the frame - anything can happen from there.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
We are being pussies, and we need to stop it. Barrett, Reece, Ioane, ALB - none of them should be near the 23 right now barring injury. Barrett for me is the most egregious simply because he has the biggest influence on how godawful our backline attacking play and field kicking is, yet he is the one guy who seems untouchable.
I guess Beaudy's also the most egregious because they have dropped Reece and ALB for this game - and Rieko has been supplanted by Proctor at centre and is pretty clearly on thin ice on the wing, with Clarke fit again.
People are fond of saying the All Blacks are not a development team (it's not really true - you'd hope no-one is wandering round thinking they're the finished product) - but, for these SA tests - and Bled I, I definitely don't want any development selections. I want them picking what they think is their best team Win the next two and there's a bit of a free swing vs Oz in Australia.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
We are being pussies, and we need to stop it. Barrett, Reece, Ioane, ALB - none of them should be near the 23 right now barring injury. Barrett for me is the most egregious simply because he has the biggest influence on how godawful our backline attacking play and field kicking is, yet he is the one guy who seems untouchable.
I guess Beaudy's also the most egregious because they have dropped Reece and ALB for this game - and Rieko has been supplanted by Proctor at centre and is pretty clearly on thin ice on the wing, with Clarke fit again.
People are fond of saying the All Blacks are not a development team (it's not really true - you'd hope no-one is wandering round thinking they're the finished product) - but, for these SA tests - and Bled I, I definitely don't want any development selections. I want them picking what they think is their best team Win the next two and there's a bit of a free swing vs Oz in Australia.
The problem I have there is if Robertson had actively tried developing players this year and last (the majority of the newer players who are part of the team were only given a chance initially because of injury) he might have other options for the big games coming up in the next few weeks.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph It's a bit poor to just turn up for the cash.
I would have picked Plummer last year instead of Perofeta, but he still would have been third choice. In my mind he's David Hill.
Reihana is promising, but doesn't look test ready.
I don't buy that these guys were/are the missing links.
DMac or Beaudy is the question - until the second coming!
If Plummer had been staying I would have picked him over Beauden at 10 for the Blues, and he was more successful.
I don't think he is/was the answer at AB level, he had one good year then fucked off - and it's not like his individual brilliance won that title.You make some good points. But he played a significant part in the way that backline operated, and he was important to their winning season. And as you said you can only think. If Razor had given him a run perhaps we might have known if he was up to it or not
That is half my point though: you can't expect to become an incumbent AB based on one genuinely pretty good season. A frankly fucking amazing season like Hoskins had wasn't enough to even make the squad.
If you choose to leave at that point rather than back it up and press your claim, that's on you.Perhaps he saw he had no shot, and took the money. I could understand, DMac arguably outplayed BB last season and he can't get a start
Late last season, Fin Christie would have been thinking he had no remaining shot. They'd picked TJP - who they knew was leaving - ahead of him, along with the youngsters in the ABs and NZ A.
And yet, here we are.
Harry had made it into the frame - anything can happen from there.
They don't even give the 3rd 10 in the squad any game time at 10 - let alone anybody else
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@Goffman said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Chris-B the public doesn't give the ABs free swings though.
I know - it's a big part of the problem! There is very little to encourage taking risks.
We lost last week and the rowdy consensus here seemed to be that all the Ass. Coaches except Ryan should be rolled.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal But, we have capped quite a few - there's nearly a whole team of new caps - except at wing, where Narawa had only played a couple of tests under Fozzie.
Tosi, Norris
Bell, McAllister
Darry, Holland
Sititi, Lakai, Lio-Willie, Kirifi, Parker
Ratima, Hotham
Plummer
Tavatavanawai
Proctor
LoveThere's perhaps a half dozen players in our squad whose age is a potential issue for the next RWC - Taylor, SBarret, Tuipolotou, BBarrett, Ioane, Reece:
- and we've got four capped hookers behind Taylor;
- Vaai, Holland, Darry and Lord as young locks
- Mo'unga and DMac at first five
- would be good to build some wing depth, but we have Clarke, Big Leicester and Narawa - with Carter in the frame and I'm pretty sure Tangitau will be soon, now he's fit again.
I think we're jumping at shadows talking about lack of development.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Goffman said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Chris-B the public doesn't give the ABs free swings though.
I know - it's a big part of the problem! There is very little to encourage taking risks.
We lost last week and the rowdy consensus here seemed to be that all the Ass. Coaches except Ryan should be rolled.
It's calculated risk, to increase the chances of winning future games.
Keep the majority of the side the same, and swap in one or two. Not this bullshit playing the supposed A team in every game that matters then rolling out a whole B team to put in a disjointed as shit performance in a dead rubber and then using that to justify leaving better players out.
We need to be taking those risks. -
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@ShaquilleOatmeal But, we have capped quite a few - there's nearly a whole team of new caps - except at wing, where Narawa had only played a couple of tests under Fozzie.
Tosi, Norris
Bell, McAllister
Darry, Holland
Sititi, Lakai, Lio-Willie, Kirifi, Parker
Ratima, Hotham
Plummer
Tavatavanawai
Proctor
LoveThere's perhaps a half dozen players in our squad whose age is a potential issue for the next RWC - Taylor, SBarret, Tuipolotou, BBarrett, Ioane, Reece:
- and we've got four capped hookers behind Taylor;
- Vaai, Holland, Darry and Lord as young locks
- Mo'unga and DMac at first five
- would be good to build some wing depth, but we have Clarke, Big Leicester and Narawa - with Carter in the frame and I'm pretty sure Tangitau will be soon, now he's fit again.
I think we're jumping at shadows talking about lack of development.
Not the way I see it mate - a lot of the players on your list have had fuck-all opportunity, or only made the squad at all due to injury.
Proctor has had a decent go. Holland too. Tosi as a bench guy. That's it really. -
@reprobate Ratima and Sititi definitely.Darry's had 6 tests.
Finau had one or two I think under Fozzie and now has 12.
Guys who were capped this year - Norris and Lio-Willie have had three already. Kirifi has five. Parker will quickly rack up numbers from here. Several would have more if they weren't injured....
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
We lost last week and the rowdy consensus here seemed to be that all the Ass. Coaches except Ryan should be rolled
TBF that's not a horrible take given the tight 5 have been the only area that has functioned well.
We did score a sexy set piece try on the weekend, but the key pass was thrown by a loose forward, i think the backline/attack coach is still in the gun.
And if we take your developed players, they are basically all forwards. The back line revolution has been to move the long time centre back to the wing, and that's it. Which would be fine if they were performing, but they are not.
My conspiracy theory is that Razor is loving BB's sub-par play as it will make swapping him for Mounga a lot easier. If he brought in someone who played well, then poor old Richie won't get a gig.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@ShaquilleOatmeal But, we have capped quite a few - there's nearly a whole team of new caps - except at wing, where Narawa had only played a couple of tests under Fozzie.
Tosi, Norris
Bell, McAllister
Darry, Holland
Sititi, Lakai, Lio-Willie, Kirifi, Parker
Ratima, Hotham
Plummer
Tavatavanawai
Proctor
LoveThere's perhaps a half dozen players in our squad whose age is a potential issue for the next RWC - Taylor, SBarret, Tuipolotou, BBarrett, Ioane, Reece:
- and we've got four capped hookers behind Taylor;
- Vaai, Holland, Darry and Lord as young locks
- Mo'unga and DMac at first five
- would be good to build some wing depth, but we have Clarke, Big Leicester and Narawa - with Carter in the frame and I'm pretty sure Tangitau will be soon, now he's fit again.
I think we're jumping at shadows talking about lack of development.
Most of those guys got their opportunity because of injury. And there's a big difference between players having one or two test caps against Japan, Italy or a few minutes from the bench here and there against better opposition and players racking up enough minutes in total (not just caps) against quality opposition to be genuine options in big games. George Bell isn't an option for a World Cup knock out game because he's capped.
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Fozzie and Razor have both had the same challenge previous coaches didn't - they got/get no warm up games anymore. We used to blood players against the Island nations etc, but since Fozzie took over we've just been going straight into Tier 1 nations to start the season. Neither have had any real chance to blood players without throwing them in the deep end and hoping they don't sink. Given the ABs are expected to win every match, I have quite a bit of sympathy for both coaches being put in that position. Why don't we do warm up games anymore?
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
Fozzie and Razor have both had the same challenge previous coaches didn't - they got/get no warm up games anymore. We used to blood players against the Island nations etc, but since Fozzie took over we've just been going straight into Tier 1 nations to start the season. Neither have had any real chance to blood players without throwing them in the deep end and hoping they don't sink. Given the ABs are expected to win every match, I have quite a bit of sympathy for both coaches being put in that position. Why don't we do warm up games anymore?
Bro, France C?
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph It's a bit poor to just turn up for the cash.
I would have picked Plummer last year instead of Perofeta, but he still would have been third choice. In my mind he's David Hill.
Reihana is promising, but doesn't look test ready.
I don't buy that these guys were/are the missing links.
DMac or Beaudy is the question - until the second coming!
If Plummer had been staying I would have picked him over Beauden at 10 for the Blues, and he was more successful.
I don't think he is/was the answer at AB level, he had one good year then fucked off - and it's not like his individual brilliance won that title.You make some good points. But he played a significant part in the way that backline operated, and he was important to their winning season. And as you said you can only think. If Razor had given him a run perhaps we might have known if he was up to it or not
That is half my point though: you can't expect to become an incumbent AB based on one genuinely pretty good season. A frankly fucking amazing season like Hoskins had wasn't enough to even make the squad.
If you choose to leave at that point rather than back it up and press your claim, that's on you.Perhaps he saw he had no shot, and took the money. I could understand, DMac arguably outplayed BB last season and he can't get a start
Late last season, Fin Christie would have been thinking he had no remaining shot. They'd picked TJP - who they knew was leaving - ahead of him, along with the youngsters in the ABs and NZ A.
And yet, here we are.
Harry had made it into the frame - anything can happen from there.
They don't even give the 3rd 10 in the squad any game time at 10 - let alone anybody else
They're planning on going to RWC2027 with Mo'unga, Beaudy and DMac as their three first fives. Do we need another option?
2011 we had DC - and then absolute rookies in Slade and Cruden - and then the discarded Beaver.
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@reprobate France are a Teir 1 nation and nearly beat us despite leaving so many at home, as they have the best depth of any Tier 1 side right now. That's not the same as a warm up against Samoa, clearly.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph It's a bit poor to just turn up for the cash.
I would have picked Plummer last year instead of Perofeta, but he still would have been third choice. In my mind he's David Hill.
Reihana is promising, but doesn't look test ready.
I don't buy that these guys were/are the missing links.
DMac or Beaudy is the question - until the second coming!
If Plummer had been staying I would have picked him over Beauden at 10 for the Blues, and he was more successful.
I don't think he is/was the answer at AB level, he had one good year then fucked off - and it's not like his individual brilliance won that title.You make some good points. But he played a significant part in the way that backline operated, and he was important to their winning season. And as you said you can only think. If Razor had given him a run perhaps we might have known if he was up to it or not
That is half my point though: you can't expect to become an incumbent AB based on one genuinely pretty good season. A frankly fucking amazing season like Hoskins had wasn't enough to even make the squad.
If you choose to leave at that point rather than back it up and press your claim, that's on you.Perhaps he saw he had no shot, and took the money. I could understand, DMac arguably outplayed BB last season and he can't get a start
Late last season, Fin Christie would have been thinking he had no remaining shot. They'd picked TJP - who they knew was leaving - ahead of him, along with the youngsters in the ABs and NZ A.
And yet, here we are.
Harry had made it into the frame - anything can happen from there.
They don't even give the 3rd 10 in the squad any game time at 10 - let alone anybody else
They're planning on going to RWC2027 with Mo'unga, Beaudy and DMac as their three first fives. Do we need another option?
2011 we had DC - and then absolute rookies in Slade and Cruden - and then the discarded Beaver.
I get that. Which is why Plummer left. He knew he had no chance.
To say that Plummer should have stuck around because the ABs suffered an insane halfback injury crisis is the bit I have an issue with.
