Worst All Black RWC exits
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@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Ceri Evan's and his red / blue model
On this, it didn't seem to help Read or Whitelock to the same extent. I think we have to accept that 1) McCaw was truly the GOAT and 2) that these theories are useful for not foolproof. So, the performance benefits for some players aren't really that obvious. Clearly, it's about finding theories that work for different players.
@gt12 said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Ceri Evan's and his red / blue model
On this, it didn't seem to help Read or Whitelock to the same extent. I think we have to accept that 1) McCaw was truly the GOAT and 2) that these theories are useful for not foolproof. So, the performance benefits for some players aren't really that obvious. Clearly, it's about finding theories that work for different players.
I suppose there is some merit in the view that obviously one size doesn't fit all. Then, there is the question of how much of this stuff really continue on after McCaw left? Did Read carry it on with as much importance / vigour (if at all)? How many of the younger guys practised their mental skills with the right intent and a full understanding of their importance (having not been through the train wreck of 2007 to fully appreciate the need for mental clarity under pressure)?
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@gt12 said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Ceri Evan's and his red / blue model
On this, it didn't seem to help Read or Whitelock to the same extent. I think we have to accept that 1) McCaw was truly the GOAT and 2) that these theories are useful for not foolproof. So, the performance benefits for some players aren't really that obvious. Clearly, it's about finding theories that work for different players.
I suppose there is some merit in the view that obviously one size doesn't fit all. Then, there is the question of how much of this stuff really continue on after McCaw left? Did Read carry it on with as much importance / vigour (if at all)? How many of the younger guys practised their mental skills with the right intent and a full understanding of their importance (having not been through the train wreck of 2007 to fully appreciate the need for mental clarity under pressure)?
Yeah, sadly, I think those things are a bit crucial - some losses are inevitable and how the players respond to them is crucial. My feeling (from a million miles away of course) is that the 'real' anxiety of being under that pressure was missing for a large number of ur players, and the problems that occurred through 2017 and 2018 were explained away by the next performance. 'Learnings' happened, but they took a week to bed in, rather than being baked in to the responses of players.
The issue with that is, of course, that in WCs, you don't get a next performance.If you look at 2011 and 2015, there was a one point final and 2 point semi final - had either (or both) gone the other way, we'd have a very different view of that whole generation. That's what made that team champions, and the Lions - especially test 3 - really showed that this team was not close to that level.
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I'm shocked at how quickly Fat guts plummeted in my mind.
If somebody else described my 180degree honest thoughts uturn about Hansen, I'd accuse them of being shallow and disloyal.I used to rave about him, but after the last couple of years I can't summon up the same affection.
It was the " only a game" and cheery smuggish responses after a loss that had me wondering if this guy wasn't opting out of the comforting, yet contrived, winning is everything AB tenet that's served us so well. That last game (and some others previous) personified an impotency and lack of mongrel that leaves a bitter taste.
Ah fuck it, a fine coach no debate, but a pox on him nevertheless
99 and 07 tied for how distraught I was for months (years?) but 99 had the "she'll be right" malaise
@Siam said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
I'm shocked at how quickly Fat guts plummeted in my mind.
If somebody else described my 180degree honest thoughts uturn about Hansen, I'd accuse them of being shallow and disloyal.I used to rave about him, but after the last couple of years I can't summon up the same affection.
I'd have to see who it was in case it was just petty provincialism but I remember copping it after posting something following the 2018 EOYT saying if they didn't win the RWC Hansen was going to be John Hart just over twice as long.
I'd say that is about right. First half impeccable. Leadership group leaves. Second half irredeemable.
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@Siam said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
I'm shocked at how quickly Fat guts plummeted in my mind.
If somebody else described my 180degree honest thoughts uturn about Hansen, I'd accuse them of being shallow and disloyal.I used to rave about him, but after the last couple of years I can't summon up the same affection.
I'd have to see who it was in case it was just petty provincialism but I remember copping it after posting something following the 2018 EOYT saying if they didn't win the RWC Hansen was going to be John Hart just over twice as long.
I'd say that is about right. First half impeccable. Leadership group leaves. Second half irredeemable.
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Siam said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
I'm shocked at how quickly Fat guts plummeted in my mind.
If somebody else described my 180degree honest thoughts uturn about Hansen, I'd accuse them of being shallow and disloyal.I used to rave about him, but after the last couple of years I can't summon up the same affection.
I'd have to see who it was in case it was just petty provincialism but I remember copping it after posting something following the 2018 EOYT saying if they didn't win the RWC Hansen was going to be John Hart just over twice as long.
I'd say that is about right. First half impeccable. Leadership group leaves. Second half irredeemable.
Except Hansen won Bill once
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@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Siam said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
I'm shocked at how quickly Fat guts plummeted in my mind.
If somebody else described my 180degree honest thoughts uturn about Hansen, I'd accuse them of being shallow and disloyal.I used to rave about him, but after the last couple of years I can't summon up the same affection.
I'd have to see who it was in case it was just petty provincialism but I remember copping it after posting something following the 2018 EOYT saying if they didn't win the RWC Hansen was going to be John Hart just over twice as long.
I'd say that is about right. First half impeccable. Leadership group leaves. Second half irredeemable.
Except Hansen won Bill once
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@Victor-Meldrew possibly a bit of both, but maybe McCaw was the catalyst that drove those around him to strive for greatness, that again, a number achieved
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew possibly a bit of both, but maybe McCaw was the catalyst that drove those around him to strive for greatness, that again, a number achieved
That 2011 RWC final, as squeaky bum as it was, and the conditions were such that the bounce (or skid) of the footy could be the difference between pain or glory, the way McCaw played I just had that feeling that he wasn’t going to let us lose. There was something about it.
Sports have produced some amazing moments, but on the very rare occasion it throws up something like that almost mystical where no matter what (we didn’t really play great), but someone like a McCaw steps up when needed.
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@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
That could just be a ruse to deflect all the blame onto Shag, though
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
That could just be a ruse to deflect all the blame onto Shag, though
I said the exact same thing in another thread!
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@kiwiinmelb said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
people barely gave a fuck about either of those things.
I did. The Ireland loss I was fucking furious. Especially given the lead up looked like a car crash waiting to happen.
Which one?
I think Chicago could be written off because well... it happened in Chicago.
Dublin was infuriating because it was heavily hyped and they didn't front the week before against England.
That is probably when the alarm bells first started to ring not just by the score , but how we failed to get anything threatening going
An under strength England team pushed us all the way and then Ireland beat us ,
I think we got too comfortable playing so many games against Australian teams who almost play into our hands , when these other teams threw something different against us ,particularly in defense, we struggled to cope
The alarm bells should have started ringing after the two matches against the Boks in 2018. In both, we were completely shit and they exposed our frailties upfront, our lack of physicality in the midfield, our inability to deal with the rush defence and also our lack of composure under pressure with the match in the balance (at least in the first test). I don't think any match before then exposed all of our weaknesses in such a manner.
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@kiwiinmelb said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
people barely gave a fuck about either of those things.
I did. The Ireland loss I was fucking furious. Especially given the lead up looked like a car crash waiting to happen.
Which one?
I think Chicago could be written off because well... it happened in Chicago.
Dublin was infuriating because it was heavily hyped and they didn't front the week before against England.
That is probably when the alarm bells first started to ring not just by the score , but how we failed to get anything threatening going
An under strength England team pushed us all the way and then Ireland beat us ,
I think we got too comfortable playing so many games against Australian teams who almost play into our hands , when these other teams threw something different against us ,particularly in defense, we struggled to cope
The alarm bells should have started ringing after the two matches against the Boks in 2018. In both, we were completely shit and they exposed our frailties upfront, our lack of physicality in the midfield, our inability to deal with the rush defence and also our lack of composure under pressure with the match in the balance (at least in the first test). I don't think any match before then exposed all of our weaknesses in such a manner.
Yeah you are right ,in hindsight I should’ve, but I was hoping it was an aberration.... we will get this fixed , Hansen is a smart guy , they are holding stuff back Etc etc
But with the NH tour , he dressed it up as a practice run for the WC , playing tough games in successive weeks , here they go I thought, now they get serious ,
well at least he was consistent , we were poor in both -
@kiwiinmelb said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
people barely gave a fuck about either of those things.
I did. The Ireland loss I was fucking furious. Especially given the lead up looked like a car crash waiting to happen.
Which one?
I think Chicago could be written off because well... it happened in Chicago.
Dublin was infuriating because it was heavily hyped and they didn't front the week before against England.
That is probably when the alarm bells first started to ring not just by the score , but how we failed to get anything threatening going
An under strength England team pushed us all the way and then Ireland beat us ,
I think we got too comfortable playing so many games against Australian teams who almost play into our hands , when these other teams threw something different against us ,particularly in defense, we struggled to cope
The alarm bells should have started ringing after the two matches against the Boks in 2018. In both, we were completely shit and they exposed our frailties upfront, our lack of physicality in the midfield, our inability to deal with the rush defence and also our lack of composure under pressure with the match in the balance (at least in the first test). I don't think any match before then exposed all of our weaknesses in such a manner.
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
The alarm bells should have started ringing after the two matches against the Boks in 2018. In both, we were completely shit
disagree. We dominated them all over the paddock in Wellington, and it was only a couple of freak tries that got them over the line.
Agree in Pretoria - we won, but were terrible all game.
In both games arguably the worse team won
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McCaw and Carter were rare talents, but I also think they took a lot from 2007. Unfortunately, I think that determination is a product of losing, so teams have to lose occasionally to work out what to do when things get tough.
@Godder said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
McCaw and Carter were rare talents, but I also think they took a lot from 2007. Unfortunately, I think that determination is a product of losing, so teams have to lose occasionally to work out what to do when things get tough.
The quantum leap came between 2003 and 2007 though.
2007 succeeded in making them incredibly paranoid about contingency planning (thank God) and approaching the RWC as a tournament rather than a series of one of games.
The learning curve to a win a RWC does seem a little romanticized, even though it's totally understandable after taking 24 years. Looking at the Boks last two RWC wins and Australia in 2015 there is no reason that with good management and NZ's player pool that we can't put together a successful RWC campaign together from scratch 18-24 months out from a RWC.
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It's clear to me that to win a RWC you still need the stars to align for you. Look at South Africa - they've got three and one of them required a team to be sick, to be there at the end because the best team was unceremoniously bundled out and an early loss putting you on the easy side of the draw.
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@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@sparky said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
ITV4 are showing the 2003 Australia-New Zealand Semi Final again later today. I would rather stick pins in my eyes that watch that again.
Mils scored in the corner.
Sure. And a Dingo Stole Your World Cup.
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@NTA said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Worst All Black Exits for me: 2011 and 2015.
No hatred for 1987 when the Wallabies were nailed on unbackable favourites going into the RWC?
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@NTA said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Worst All Black Exits for me: 2011 and 2015.
No hatred for 1987 when the Wallabies were nailed on unbackable favourites going into the RWC?
Before my time in rugby.
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@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@NTA said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Worst All Black Exits for me: 2011 and 2015.
No hatred for 1987 when the Wallabies were nailed on unbackable favourites going into the RWC?
Before my time in rugby.
@NTA said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@NTA said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Worst All Black Exits for me: 2011 and 2015.
No hatred for 1987 when the Wallabies were nailed on unbackable favourites going into the RWC?
Before my time in rugby.
Were you a bogan back then? AFL or State House Rugby?
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It's clear to me that to win a RWC you still need the stars to align for you. Look at South Africa - they've got three and one of them required a team to be sick, to be there at the end because the best team was unceremoniously bundled out and an early loss putting you on the easy side of the draw.
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
It's clear to me that to win a RWC you still need the stars to align for you. Look at South Africa - they've got three and one of them required a team to be sick, to be there at the end because the best team was unceremoniously bundled out and an early loss putting you on the easy side of the draw.
Agreed, unless you have a special team that is clearly better than the rest. SA seem to have all the luck in the world when it comes to RWCs. If we had lost that opening match to them, I think we would still be World Champs now.
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@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
It's clear to me that to win a RWC you still need the stars to align for you. Look at South Africa - they've got three and one of them required a team to be sick, to be there at the end because the best team was unceremoniously bundled out and an early loss putting you on the easy side of the draw.
Agreed, unless you have a special team that is clearly better than the rest. SA seem to have all the luck in the world when it comes to RWCs. If we had lost that opening match to them, I think we would still be World Champs now.
@akan004 said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
It's clear to me that to win a RWC you still need the stars to align for you. Look at South Africa - they've got three and one of them required a team to be sick, to be there at the end because the best team was unceremoniously bundled out and an early loss putting you on the easy side of the draw.
Agreed, unless you have a special team that is clearly better than the rest. SA seem to have all the luck in the world when it comes to RWCs. If we had lost that opening match to them, I think we would still be World Champs now.
yep, and gnashing our teeth about our record of never losing a pool game at a RWC. Remarkable, really - SA have lost three, and most others aren't even close!
... and yet we have only won 3. Roll on 2023
