All Blacks EOYT
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@nzzp said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse like I said, a parent wouldn't be a loose tie for me, I'm pretty sure millions of others would share that view.
Samoa, Tonga, etc would drop well down the rugby rankings if that wasn't the case too.
Agree. But he already made his bed with NZ. That is my contention.
Rugby wanted the Olympics funding ,,, so they sacrificed their eligibility rules. That's not on Sotutu. It allows capped players to play for origin countries - like Tonga. On balance, I don't think it's a terrible situation
Yeah I wouldn't blame him if it was to come about. I would probably think long and hard about doing the same if I was in his position.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@nzzp said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse like I said, a parent wouldn't be a loose tie for me, I'm pretty sure millions of others would share that view.
Samoa, Tonga, etc would drop well down the rugby rankings if that wasn't the case too.
Agree. But he already made his bed with NZ. That is my contention.
Rugby wanted the Olympics funding ,,, so they sacrificed their eligibility rules. That's not on Sotutu. It allows capped players to play for origin countries - like Tonga. On balance, I don't think it's a terrible situation
Yeah I wouldn't blame him if it was to come about. I would probably think long and hard about doing the same if I was in his position.
I suspect he did. Giving up your AB opportunity is something you would do very deliberately.
As a Blues fan, I'm gutted. We've lost two of the three dominant loosies in our trio, and I suspect our form hooker follows them.
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@Billy-Tell I wasn't having a go bro, just checking. What he did in this Super season is worlds apart from what he's done previously, and stands up pretty well to any player's individual contribution to a season I would think.
@reprobate said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Billy-Tell I wasn't having a go bro, just checking. What he did in this Super season is worlds apart from what he's done previously, and stands up pretty well to any player's individual contribution to a season I would think.
Agreed.
The Blues scored 87 tries this season. The most in the comp. Sotutu scored 12 tries ( a record for forwards ) and had 9 try assists which means he was directly involved in basically a quarter of the Blues tries for the entire season.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
an English parent is stretching things a bit given he has already played for NZ.
That seems pretty bizarre to me. What wouldn't be stretching it then? Some families have very strong ties to their ancestry that isn't even close to a one generation link.
Just ask my uncle Maxwell.
Born and raised in England perhaps? We are talking about a switch in allegiance here. If he had not already played for NZ then , yeah, go for it.
I dunno about you but I'm pretty close to my parents and would love to do something that might represent either one of them and make them proud. Fuck I would've even considered playing for Otago and moving to Tairei.
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
an English parent is stretching things a bit given he has already played for NZ.
That seems pretty bizarre to me. What wouldn't be stretching it then? Some families have very strong ties to their ancestry that isn't even close to a one generation link.
Just ask my uncle Maxwell.
Born and raised in England perhaps? We are talking about a switch in allegiance here. If he had not already played for NZ then , yeah, go for it.
I dunno about you but I'm pretty close to my parents and would love to do something that might represent either one of them and make them proud. Fuck I would've even considered playing for Otago and moving to Tairei.
my adult son was born in Australia , supports the allblacks because he grew up with me and i guess my passion rubbed off on him .
Hoskins has an English mum and a fijian dad , good chance he has mixed allegiances
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@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
an English parent is stretching things a bit given he has already played for NZ.
That seems pretty bizarre to me. What wouldn't be stretching it then? Some families have very strong ties to their ancestry that isn't even close to a one generation link.
Just ask my uncle Maxwell.
Born and raised in England perhaps? We are talking about a switch in allegiance here. If he had not already played for NZ then , yeah, go for it.
I dunno about you but I'm pretty close to my parents and would love to do something that might represent either one of them and make them proud. Fuck I would've even considered playing for Otago and moving to Tairei.
my adult son was born in Australia , supports the allblacks because he grew up with me and i guess my passion rubbed off on him .
Hoskins has an English mum and a fijian dad , good chance he has mixed allegiances
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
an English parent is stretching things a bit given he has already played for NZ.
That seems pretty bizarre to me. What wouldn't be stretching it then? Some families have very strong ties to their ancestry that isn't even close to a one generation link.
Just ask my uncle Maxwell.
Born and raised in England perhaps? We are talking about a switch in allegiance here. If he had not already played for NZ then , yeah, go for it.
I dunno about you but I'm pretty close to my parents and would love to do something that might represent either one of them and make them proud. Fuck I would've even considered playing for Otago and moving to Tairei.
my adult son was born in Australia , supports the allblacks because he grew up with me and i guess my passion rubbed off on him .
Hoskins has an English mum and a fijian dad , good chance he has mixed allegiances
Did Hos support England in rugby? Did he dream of playing for England? I don't know. I bet your son dreams of being an AB.
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It's a funny thing to contemplate. I don't have parents from disparate countries and without the reasonable prospect of ever playing for the All Blacks I can't as a Kiwi comprehend playing Test rugby for another country. Not that I'm aware of any chance that option would have materialised outside of (checks rankings) Greece, Monaco or Norway.
But I have represented Australia both through Defence and Parly without a second thought.
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As someone mentioned above, the life of a pro rugby is/can be very short. And playing international rugby greatly increases your earning potential.
I've never had to make the decision, but I wouldn't hold it against anyone who makes the move, for ancestry or financial reasons.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse like I said, a parent wouldn't be a loose tie for me, I'm pretty sure millions of others would share that view.
Samoa, Tonga, etc would drop well down the rugby rankings if that wasn't the case too.
Agree. But he already made his bed with NZ. That is my contention.
Rugby wanted the Olympics funding ,,, so they sacrificed their eligibility rules. That's not on Sotutu. It allows capped players to play for origin countries - like Tonga. On balance, I don't think it's a terrible situation
Yeah I wouldn't blame him if it was to come about. I would probably think long and hard about doing the same if I was in his position.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@nzzp said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse like I said, a parent wouldn't be a loose tie for me, I'm pretty sure millions of others would share that view.
Samoa, Tonga, etc would drop well down the rugby rankings if that wasn't the case too.
Agree. But he already made his bed with NZ. That is my contention.
Rugby wanted the Olympics funding ,,, so they sacrificed their eligibility rules. That's not on Sotutu. It allows capped players to play for origin countries - like Tonga. On balance, I don't think it's a terrible situation
Yeah I wouldn't blame him if it was to come about. I would probably think long and hard about doing the same if I was in his position.
Don't you live in Aussie these days? If so, how would you feel if your kid represented Australia, got shunned and so decided to represent your country of birth (if that's NZ)?
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@nzzp said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse like I said, a parent wouldn't be a loose tie for me, I'm pretty sure millions of others would share that view.
Samoa, Tonga, etc would drop well down the rugby rankings if that wasn't the case too.
Agree. But he already made his bed with NZ. That is my contention.
Rugby wanted the Olympics funding ,,, so they sacrificed their eligibility rules. That's not on Sotutu. It allows capped players to play for origin countries - like Tonga. On balance, I don't think it's a terrible situation
Yeah I wouldn't blame him if it was to come about. I would probably think long and hard about doing the same if I was in his position.
Don't you live in Aussie these days? If so, how would you feel if your kid represented Australia, got shunned and so decided to represent your country of birth (if that's NZ)?
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@nzzp said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse like I said, a parent wouldn't be a loose tie for me, I'm pretty sure millions of others would share that view.
Samoa, Tonga, etc would drop well down the rugby rankings if that wasn't the case too.
Agree. But he already made his bed with NZ. That is my contention.
Rugby wanted the Olympics funding ,,, so they sacrificed their eligibility rules. That's not on Sotutu. It allows capped players to play for origin countries - like Tonga. On balance, I don't think it's a terrible situation
Yeah I wouldn't blame him if it was to come about. I would probably think long and hard about doing the same if I was in his position.
Don't you live in Aussie these days? If so, how would you feel if your kid represented Australia, got shunned and so decided to represent your country of birth (if that's NZ)?
Don't have kids or principles so I can only guess. I'd guess I would tell them to go for it if they so wished. Still don't think they should be allowed to if they had already played for Australia.
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@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@nzzp said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse like I said, a parent wouldn't be a loose tie for me, I'm pretty sure millions of others would share that view.
Samoa, Tonga, etc would drop well down the rugby rankings if that wasn't the case too.
Agree. But he already made his bed with NZ. That is my contention.
Rugby wanted the Olympics funding ,,, so they sacrificed their eligibility rules. That's not on Sotutu. It allows capped players to play for origin countries - like Tonga. On balance, I don't think it's a terrible situation
Yeah I wouldn't blame him if it was to come about. I would probably think long and hard about doing the same if I was in his position.
Don't you live in Aussie these days? If so, how would you feel if your kid represented Australia, got shunned and so decided to represent your country of birth (if that's NZ)?
Don't have kids or principles so I can only guess. I'd guess I would tell them to go for it if they so wished. Still don't think they should be allowed to if they had already played for Australia.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@nzzp said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Crazy-Horse like I said, a parent wouldn't be a loose tie for me, I'm pretty sure millions of others would share that view.
Samoa, Tonga, etc would drop well down the rugby rankings if that wasn't the case too.
Agree. But he already made his bed with NZ. That is my contention.
Rugby wanted the Olympics funding ,,, so they sacrificed their eligibility rules. That's not on Sotutu. It allows capped players to play for origin countries - like Tonga. On balance, I don't think it's a terrible situation
Yeah I wouldn't blame him if it was to come about. I would probably think long and hard about doing the same if I was in his position.
Don't you live in Aussie these days? If so, how would you feel if your kid represented Australia, got shunned and so decided to represent your country of birth (if that's NZ)?
Don't have kids or principles so I can only guess. I'd guess I would tell them to go for it if they so wished. Still don't think they should be allowed to if they had already played for Australia.
Same, I'd probably be a bit on the fence if they were still coveted by their country of birth, but would be right behind them if they were treated as Sotutu appears to have been treated.
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@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
Yip when I think of generational talents, the names McCaw Carter Lomu and Sotutu roll off the tongue.
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks EOYT:
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
Yip when I think of generational talents, the names McCaw Carter Lomu and Sotutu roll off the tongue.
Post of the year. This deserves all the upvotes.
The hysteria around Sotutu is ridiculous
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@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks EOYT:
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
Yip when I think of generational talents, the names McCaw Carter Lomu and Sotutu roll off the tongue.
Post of the year. This deserves all the upvotes.
The hysteria around Sotutu is ridiculous
@MN5 said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks EOYT:
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
Yip when I think of generational talents, the names McCaw Carter Lomu and Sotutu roll off the tongue.
Post of the year. This deserves all the upvotes.
The hysteria around Sotutu is ridiculous
He's no Morne van der Merwe.
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Yeah, strange attitude, kids with multiple passports can have very strong attachments to both / multiple countries.
My boy considers himself equally a kiwi and japanese.
@gt12 said in All Blacks EOYT:
Yeah, strange attitude, kids with multiple passports can have very strong attachments to both / multiple countries.
My boy considers himself equally a kiwi and japanese.
I'm half Samoan and proudly consider myself Kiwi and Samoan so yeah, everyone's different of course.
I remember Gareth Anscombe saying how he felt just as much of a connection to Wales growing up as his mother is Welsh after copping a bit of criticism for his Welsh call up, and I'm inclined to believe him being in a similar situation, and I assume Hoskins Sotutu would be in the same boat as someone like Anscombe so yeah, I don't see a problem with him changing allegiances.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks EOYT:
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
Yip when I think of generational talents, the names McCaw Carter Lomu and Sotutu roll off the tongue.
Post of the year. This deserves all the upvotes.
The hysteria around Sotutu is ridiculous
He's no Morne van der Merwe.
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@MN5 said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks EOYT:
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
Yip when I think of generational talents, the names McCaw Carter Lomu and Sotutu roll off the tongue.
Post of the year. This deserves all the upvotes.
The hysteria around Sotutu is ridiculous
He's no Morne van der Merwe.
Duhan, not Morne you pillock
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@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@MN5 said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks EOYT:
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
Yip when I think of generational talents, the names McCaw Carter Lomu and Sotutu roll off the tongue.
Post of the year. This deserves all the upvotes.
The hysteria around Sotutu is ridiculous
He's no Morne van der Merwe.
Duhan, not Morne you pillock
@MN5 said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@MN5 said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks EOYT:
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
Yip when I think of generational talents, the names McCaw Carter Lomu and Sotutu roll off the tongue.
Post of the year. This deserves all the upvotes.
The hysteria around Sotutu is ridiculous
He's no Morne van der Merwe.
Duhan, not Morne you pillock
And I thought you were a Wellington rugby supporter.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@MN5 said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks EOYT:
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
Yip when I think of generational talents, the names McCaw Carter Lomu and Sotutu roll off the tongue.
Post of the year. This deserves all the upvotes.
The hysteria around Sotutu is ridiculous
He's no Morne van der Merwe.
Duhan, not Morne you pillock
And I thought you were a Wellington rugby supporter.
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@MN5 said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Bones said in All Blacks EOYT:
@MN5 said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks EOYT:
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
Yip when I think of generational talents, the names McCaw Carter Lomu and Sotutu roll off the tongue.
Post of the year. This deserves all the upvotes.
The hysteria around Sotutu is ridiculous
He's no Morne van der Merwe.
Duhan, not Morne you pillock
And I thought you were a Wellington rugby supporter.
Um yeah most of them could walk past me on the street and I’d have no clue.
I’m no @Canes4life
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@gt12 said in All Blacks EOYT:
Yeah, strange attitude, kids with multiple passports can have very strong attachments to both / multiple countries.
My boy considers himself equally a kiwi and japanese.
I'm half Samoan and proudly consider myself Kiwi and Samoan so yeah, everyone's different of course.
I remember Gareth Anscombe saying how he felt just as much of a connection to Wales growing up as his mother is Welsh after copping a bit of criticism for his Welsh call up, and I'm inclined to believe him being in a similar situation, and I assume Hoskins Sotutu would be in the same boat as someone like Anscombe so yeah, I don't see a problem with him changing allegiances.
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks EOYT:
@gt12 said in All Blacks EOYT:
Yeah, strange attitude, kids with multiple passports can have very strong attachments to both / multiple countries.
My boy considers himself equally a kiwi and japanese.
I'm half Samoan and proudly consider myself Kiwi and Samoan so yeah, everyone's different of course.
I remember Gareth Anscombe saying how he felt just as much of a connection to Wales growing up as his mother is Welsh after copping a bit of criticism for his Welsh call up, and I'm inclined to believe him being in a similar situation, and I assume Hoskins Sotutu would be in the same boat as someone like Anscombe so yeah, I don't see a problem with him changing allegiances.
You'd hardly expect Anscombe, or anyone else in that situation, to say anything different though.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks EOYT:
Yeah, strange attitude, kids with multiple passports can have very strong attachments to both / multiple countries.
My boy considers himself equally a kiwi and japanese.
I'm half Samoan and proudly consider myself Kiwi and Samoan so yeah, everyone's different of course.
I remember Gareth Anscombe saying how he felt just as much of a connection to Wales growing up as his mother is Welsh after copping a bit of criticism for his Welsh call up, and I'm inclined to believe him being in a similar situation, and I assume Hoskins Sotutu would be in the same boat as someone like Anscombe so yeah, I don't see a problem with him changing allegiances.
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks EOYT:
@gt12 said in All Blacks EOYT:
Yeah, strange attitude, kids with multiple passports can have very strong attachments to both / multiple countries.
My boy considers himself equally a kiwi and japanese.
I'm half Samoan and proudly consider myself Kiwi and Samoan so yeah, everyone's different of course.
I remember Gareth Anscombe saying how he felt just as much of a connection to Wales growing up as his mother is Welsh after copping a bit of criticism for his Welsh call up, and I'm inclined to believe him being in a similar situation, and I assume Hoskins Sotutu would be in the same boat as someone like Anscombe so yeah, I don't see a problem with him changing allegiances.
Part African and part monkey too. That’s a real melting pot of cultures
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@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
Yip when I think of generational talents, the names McCaw Carter Lomu and Sotutu roll off the tongue.
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks EOYT:
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
Yip when I think of generational loose forward try-creating talents, the names
McCaw Carter Lomuand Sotutu roll off the tongue.Two were backs, one didn't create the tries directly himself, too busy being a GOAT.
)
