All Blacks 2025
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@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean Ellison answers to Scott Hansen.
I think you're missing my point. How is that delineation not confusing to players?
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean Ellison answers to Scott Hansen.
I think you're missing my point. How is that delineation not confusing to players?
Reminds me of any other bloated corporate where responsibilities are overlapping and it's hard to tell what each person's role is
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Jason Ryan looks after the forwards.
Jason Holland the attack.
Scott Hansen strategy and defence.Ellison answers to Scott Hansen.
And yeah, it's a confusing structure.
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So who's coaching what again?
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@Chris Scott Hansen is in charge of defence......
Tamati Ellison's role is the contact area in defence.
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris Scott Hansen is in charge of defence......
Tamati Ellison's role is the contact area in defence.
WTAF?
Do they have a bootlace-tying coach as well?
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So who's coaching what again?
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@Chris Scott Hansen is in charge of defence......
Tamati Ellison's role is the contact area in defence.
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
Tamati Ellison's role is the contact area in defence.
So not the tiddlywinks part.
That's another coach. -
@African-Monkey 1-5 Ryan, 6-8 Razor, 9-10 Hansen, 12-13 Holland, 11,14,15 Rangi
don't ya remember?
@restofit said in All Blacks 2025:
@African-Monkey 1-5 Ryan, 6-8 Razor, 9-10 Hansen, 12-13 Holland, 11,14,15 Rangi
don't ya remember?
Oh yeah....duh!
What's former club slut Tamati Ellison's role again? Back 3 collision contact defence?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
But with the de-internationalisation of Super, the longterms effects of COVID isolationism (perhaps), coaching drain overseas, and arguably a much richer international competition overseas that we are not part of, I think I under-estimated it.
Funnily enough, anyone arguing these very same points between 2021-23 was immediately labelled a Foster apologist.
Progress in a way, I guess - but at a cost.
I love how you compress and conflate everything!
Wanting to get rid of Foster doesn't mean one becomes a Razor fanatic.
I would have been happy with Joe, JJ./Brown or perhaps McMillan or Rennie.
Not Rangi or Warren. Not sure about Cotter.
I thought Razor would be better than he has been so far, I still think Razor is a better coach than Foster.
The difference was Joe but I don't recall if he expressed interest in continuing if Foster returned.
Ryan worked for both.
And I wouldn't have chosen the assistant coaches Razor did (or had to).
Whitelock is right, being stuck with assistants before being chosen has its disadvantages.
Regardless, Foster had to go. Whoever thinks they knew all along Razor's team would be as conservative and muddled as Foster's is just polishing their crystal balls.@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
Wanting to get rid of Foster doesn't mean one becomes a Razor fanatic.
Not what I said.
The same changes in the global & NZ rugby environment impacted both coaches but too many unthinking morons told us with messianic fervour that was irrelevant - all ABs problems and losses were down to Foster and once Coach Jesus took over the sun would shine again.
Brain-dead thinking, of course, but at least the argument has moved on. It's not the head coach that's the problem now - it's the assistants....
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@ShaquilleOatmeal That's not really what I'm arguing about though - I'm arguing that prior international experience isn't the be-all and end-all and pointing out a host of guys with loads of prior international experience who haven't been able arrest slides or are doing no better than Razor.
And there's no shortage of people prepared to say that things would be better under Joe or Jamie, but their records don't get the same scrutiny at Razor's (or Fozzie's).
It's also fairly invalid to compare Hansen's and Henry's records to the current coaches, because there's simply no doubt that most international teams have got significantly better. You don't get a free pass to experiment vs Japan, Fiji, Italy. You blink and they'll tip you over.
e,g, Eddie - who I thought was a busted flush after his latest RWC exploits - gave Joe a very uncomfortable 10 minutes at the end at the weekend. We would not have been happy if that had been an AB B team.
But, yes - there's no doubt we'ré not travelling quite how anyone should be happy with. I've said this on a number of occasions - but, if we can bank 3/4 on the EOYT I think NZR will be quietly happy with the season. I'm hopeful we'll do better than that, but concerned about the injuries in the tight five. We can't afford any more.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
That's not really what I'm arguing about though - I'm arguing that prior international experience isn't the be-all and end-all and pointing out a host of guys with loads of prior international experience who haven't been able arrest slides or are doing no better than Razor.
Your original post was drawing on what other coaches with international experience have or haven’t managed as a way of defending Robertson. Mine points out that line of argument relies on speculation about how others would be doing in his place. How well they're doing coaching ather teams doesn't factor in for me and I don't really care. Robertson is the All Blacks coach through to the World Cup. He needs to do better.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris Scott Hansen is in charge of defence......
Tamati Ellison's role is the contact area in defence.
Nah Scott Hansen is no longer defence coach Ellison stepped up to take it over completely .
And hasn't he done a sterling job!
NO
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris Scott Hansen is in charge of defence......
Tamati Ellison's role is the contact area in defence.
Nah Scott Hansen is no longer defence coach Ellison stepped up to take it over completely .
And hasn't he done a sterling job!
NO
To be fair our backline strategy is fucking terrible too.
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I think regardless of what, coaches learn by not just coaching differing styles of rugby, but actually learn how to select players from a bigger pool then the 30odd-40 players you got contracted at super level. And it is a learning process, read books by Ted and Shag etc, and you will read of coaches who learnt a lot doing not just clubs overseas , but more importantly how much they learnt in the Welsh environment. Razor will be a much better coach for what he is learning now, it's a shame he has to learn here instead of someone else paying for it.
I suspect some other country could end up getting the advantage with NZR paying the bill? -
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
Wanting to get rid of Foster doesn't mean one becomes a Razor fanatic.
Not what I said.
The same changes in the global & NZ rugby environment impacted both coaches but too many unthinking morons told us with messianic fervour that was irrelevant - all ABs problems and losses were down to Foster and once Coach Jesus took over the sun would shine again.
Brain-dead thinking, of course, but at least the argument has moved on. It's not the head coach that's the problem now - it's the assistants....
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
Wanting to get rid of Foster doesn't mean one becomes a Razor fanatic.
Not what I said.
The same changes in the global & NZ rugby environment impacted both coaches but too many unthinking morons told us with messianic fervour that was irrelevant - all ABs problems and losses were down to Foster and once Coach Jesus took over the sun would shine again.
Brain-dead thinking, of course, but at least the argument has moved on. It's not the head coach that's the problem now - it's the assistants....
Can you make an argument without insulting people?
I said: Wanting to get rid of Foster doesn't mean one becomes a Razor fanatic.
You said: all ABs problems and losses were down to Foster and once Coach Jesus took over the sun would shine again.Now you are saying "It's not the head coach that's the problem now - it's the assistants..." when many posts are saying it is both but they're very unlikely to fire Razor.
Twisty, twisty,
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I watched the ARP for the first time in a while, where they discussed possible replacements for Holland. It's all very well Parsons and Hall talking about some of the overseas options (Goodman, Evans, O'Gara, etc), but they failed to mention it would take a lot of money for them to leave their current NH role. Coaches are no different to players when it comes to $$. For those that haven't watched it, Goodman is a guest.
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I watched the ARP for the first time in a while, where they discussed possible replacements for Holland. It's all very well Parsons and Hall talking about some of the overseas options (Goodman, Evans, O'Gara, etc), but they failed to mention it would take a lot of money for them to leave their current NH role. Coaches are no different to players when it comes to $$. For those that haven't watched it, Goodman is a guest.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
I watched the ARP for the first time in a while, where they discussed possible replacements for Holland. It's all very well Parsons and Hall talking about some of the overseas options (Goodman, Evans, O'Gara, etc), but they failed to mention it would take a lot of money for them to leave their current NH role. Coaches are no different to players when it comes to $$. For those that haven't watched it, Goodman is a guest.
Well really Bovidae, they were just throwing out names. not saying who should get job, or talking pay etc. They didn't even look who was interested etc either just who could be looked at.
I had thought same thing as you when they listed them, but then thought well just you would think these names could possibly get thrown around. I actually enjoyed Goodman, and seems pretty calm fella, and doesn't seem to think he is ready for a head coaching job anywhere as yet, which seems to suggest a man who knows his abilties/experience etc. -
@ShaquilleOatmeal That's not really what I'm arguing about though - I'm arguing that prior international experience isn't the be-all and end-all and pointing out a host of guys with loads of prior international experience who haven't been able arrest slides or are doing no better than Razor.
And there's no shortage of people prepared to say that things would be better under Joe or Jamie, but their records don't get the same scrutiny at Razor's (or Fozzie's).
It's also fairly invalid to compare Hansen's and Henry's records to the current coaches, because there's simply no doubt that most international teams have got significantly better. You don't get a free pass to experiment vs Japan, Fiji, Italy. You blink and they'll tip you over.
e,g, Eddie - who I thought was a busted flush after his latest RWC exploits - gave Joe a very uncomfortable 10 minutes at the end at the weekend. We would not have been happy if that had been an AB B team.
But, yes - there's no doubt we'ré not travelling quite how anyone should be happy with. I've said this on a number of occasions - but, if we can bank 3/4 on the EOYT I think NZR will be quietly happy with the season. I'm hopeful we'll do better than that, but concerned about the injuries in the tight five. We can't afford any more.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal That's not really what I'm arguing about though - I'm arguing that prior international experience isn't the be-all and end-all and pointing out a host of guys with loads of prior international experience who haven't been able arrest slides or are doing no better than Razor.
It's not everything, but funnily enough Sam Whitelock said in his book that he thought he thought Plumtree and Mooar weren't experienced enough at test level to be assistant coaches.
Mind you he a real believer it a massive step up to test rugby.
